In this episode Tina and Stephen share the deeper purpose of concentration practice, which isn’t to attain any particular states, but rather is to serve as a purification of the mind stream, what they describe as the “thinning of the me.” They describe the 8 jhanas as states that progressively reach toward the unconditioned, with the 8th jhana, neither perception nor non-perception, as a realm that is as close as you can get to the unconditioned without being itself unconditioned. From there emerges no-thingness, then consciousness, space, and finally form itself. They tell their students that orienting toward the unconditioned, or “the force”, is a type of jedi mind training. And we thought we were geeks!
We complete the discussion by exploring the vipassana technique of Pa Auk Sayadaw, which is a powerful way of exploring materiality, mentality, and dependent origination, using the jhana states as a super-powered basis for that investigation. Tina and Stephen share their understanding of this practice, and how it leads to liberating insight and awakening.
The Jedi Mind Training of Concentration: Buddhist Geeks Talk 160
Episode Description:
In this episode we wrap up our discussion with meditation teachers Tina Rasmussen and
Stephen Snyder, two of the only lay Western teachers authorized to teach the jhana
system of Pa Auk Sayadaw. They share the deeper purpose of concentration practice,
which isn’t to attain any particular states, but rather is to serve as a purification of the
mind stream, what they describe as the “thinning of the me.”
They describe the 8 jhanas as states that progressively reach toward the unconditioned,
with the 8th jhana, neither perception nor non-perception, as a realm that is as close as
you can get to the unconditioned without being itself unconditioned. From there emerges
no-thingness, then consciousness, space, and finally form itself. They tell their students
that orienting toward the unconditioned, or “the force”, is a type of jedi mind training.
And we thought we were geeks!
We complete the discussion by exploring the vipassana technique of Pa Auk Sayadaw,
which is a powerful way of exploring materiality, mentality, and dependent origination,
using the jhana states as a super-powered basis for that investigation. Tina and Stephen
share their understanding of this practice, and how it leads to liberating insight and
awakening.
This is part 2 of a two-part series. Listen to part 1, Mastering the Jhanas.
Transcript:
Vince: Following on some of the traditional benefits, I was wondering if you’ve noticed
any benefits in your own practice that maybe weren’t so clear when you read the
traditional texts, or from your teacher for instance, like if there are things that were really
of benefit that you maybe didn’t expect.
Tina: Yeah, actually one of the things that we’re hoping to contribute to the conversation
about this practice is what we’re calling the “thinning of the me.” And we talked a little
bit about how when a full Jhana absorption arises, it’s not like “I went into Jhana.” That
would be an incorrect statement. Awareness is experiencing Jhana, but the idea that the
is a me who’s in there saying “oh I went into Jhana,” that is not how it happens. That is
not the experience of it.
So just for a full Jhana experience to arise, there has to be a certain amount of loosening
of the aggregates—just for it to happen. So this where, what you were talking about, if
you look at, what you were talking about, “Jhana lite,” or lighter forms of the Jhanas.
We’re not sure that that’s really cultivating the thinning of the me because it may not be
full absorption. We don’t know because we haven’t done those practices so it’s a little
hard to say. But one of the main benefits we’ve found personally and that we also are
really seeing with other people that is surprising to them and really much more profound
in some ways is this thinning of the me.
So what’s happening when, if you really look at the progression up to the eighth Jhana,
you got the material Jhanas, which are all based on objects that are in materiality, so like
the breath. And, even within those four Jhanas, there’s more and more thinning of the me.
So you start with say the Jhana factors where joy may be more predominant and then that
drops. And happiness is more predominant in the third Jhana, well that’s much more
subtle. Then in the fourth Jhana, really the only two factors are one-pointedness and
equanimity. So if we have a lot of attachments, those are gonna have to be purified out of
our attachment base, or also out of our fear as you progress through those four Jhanas.
Then, going into the upper Jhanas, the way that the Buddha framed them, he talked about
them as realms. And that is really how we experience them. That they aren’t the same as
the lower Jhanas, they are a whole different category. And they’re actually realms of
being that, if you think about it in reverse order, mirror the progression from the
unconditioned down through more and more density down through materiality.
So just to give you an example of that, if you start with the unconditioned, the eighth
Jhana, which is the closest to that is neither perception nor non-perception. I mean what
does that even mean? It means non-duality. It means that the mind can’t hold it. So for
the eighth Jhana to arise, there can’t be any thinking even in access concentration. So this
is the most subtle, most refined possible experience of awareness without being actually
aware of the unconditioned. It’s like, right next to it. Then you have nothingness. Or what
we call it No-thing-ness. So now you’ve got the void, basically, from which everything
manifests. Then after the void, you’ve got consciousness. So you go from the
unconditioned through a non-dual kind of frame into nothing, into the void. From the
void comes the consciousness that creates everything. From that creates the space that
holds all of materiality. And then, right next to that is the form Jhanas, where things
actually start manifesting down to form. And here I am, meditating on my breath, with
every breath orienting my consciousness towards the unconditioned. So you see the
power of that?
I mean, here doing this practice, we’re turning our awareness towards the unconditioned,
whether we get all the way up to the eighth Jhana or not, whether we even get in to the
first Jhana or not, we’re orienting. And that is the purification that’s happening that really
we can see in working people that there is a thinning of the me that is happening just by
doing that. I’m loosening the aggregates. Or better said, the aggregates are loosening are
loosening as a result of that endeavor.
Stephen: And people are seeing this as they move back into their life and swear the
normal things that snag them, the normal way that they take themselves to be, has been
loosened because they have turned away towards that, what we’re calling the
unconditioned, they’re turning away from the condition, the normal, the patterning…
Tina: The me that I know,
Stephen: …towards the mystery.
Tina: Yeah.
Stephen: And so, really, that creates more freedom and again, we saw this in the retreat
and as they returned to their life, we did a feedback form, and they commented that they
really were seeing a difference going back into their life. It just creates choices. Where
before there was a patterning, if this happened, this was my reaction, this is who I am,
and now it’s like, Well, is this who I am? Is this the choice I want to make, or do I want
to choose something different in relation to this kind of situation, where, as Tina said, the
driving, somebody cuts you off driving. There becomes a choice: Do I want to get angry,
do I want to feel like they are invading my space, or do I not?
Tina: Well, and it breaks, it’s starting to break down that habit pattern.
Stephen: And the cycle of suffering.
Tina: Yeah. So there’s, to us, this whole orienting ourselves towards the mystery, and the
thinning of the me that has to happen for a full jhana absorption to arise, is essential
before doing vipassana, because in vipassana, you’re really seeing everything we take to
be how reality works, as the matrix, you know? It’s not like the matrix
Stephen: The movie.
Tina: It is the matrix. Yeah.
Stephen: Right.
Tina: And this is extremely different way of perceiving reality. So, without this thinning
of the me that’s happening during the purification of the mind, how can we really expect
the vipassana to do its full job? This is why the Buddha really encouraged people to
undertake the samatha first. Now, if they aren’t a person who that can be possible for,
then you go straight to vipassana, but to just skip over it without even trying was not what
the Buddha recommended. He thought you should at least give it a try for all of these
benefits that we’ve just been talking about.
Vince: Right. Yeah, I know, traditionally, in the Pali Canon, he talks about those that
wake up using jhana, and those that do more of the dry vipassana…
Stephen: Right.
Vince: …path. And that’s one thing I wanted to hear maybe a little more on, is just what
have you found now working with other people, and of course you know many other
people who’ve done these practices. I mean, obviously, of the people on that two-month
retreat, you were probably the only two to complete the training there, so it seems pretty
clear that there is a pretty high bar in terms of completing this training. And also, it seems
like it can be a training that takes quite a long time, and maybe, either people don’t have
the time, or they may not have the proclivity or capacity to develop concentration to that
degree. I’m wondering what you think about that.
Stephen: Sure. Well, again, this gets back to the initial distinction between getting the
jhana in purification of mind, because in the retreat we just led with 30 people,
everybody, I would say, without exception, reported that they had some level of
purification of mind. They had some concentration develop, they had some cultivation of
disinterest in their own patterning and their own thought cycles, etc.
So, right away, there was benefit. So, these people went home with benefit. And, for
some people, jhana did arise. So, it is going to happen. It’s really a question, a couple of
questions, about, really, how much purification is necessary. There’s also some people
that really need to do a little bit of metta before they start this practice to feel very seeded
before they begin. Because there is a sense, sometimes, that this is, it’s a big deal. You
know, you are turning away from who you understand yourself to be, and turning toward
the mystery. And part of the reason it’s called the mystery is because we don’t know. We
don’t know what it’s going to be like. And what we are trying to communicate to people
is, the you that you know yourself as, you are not taking this trip. The awareness is taking
the trip, is moving through the progression of practice. So that sounds conceptual right
now, but when you are actually doing it, there is something real that begins to happen that
feels very personal to people. So, some of that is the comfort they have with doing that.
We think there are people that definitely have…they are able to, to just sort of sit down
and, and begin pretty quickly and other people there’s a little more time to develop for
the purification, for that ripening.
You know, if you buy a bag of green apples at the store, which apples are going to ripen
quicker? We don’t know. It’s based on a lot of circumstances that our outside our control.
And yet, not one apple is better than another. They just ripen when they ripen. In the
same way, purification of mind happens when it happens, to the point, it’s almost like, it
isn’t quite like this, but it feels this way: we almost have to get to a certain vibration level
in our energy and when it matches first jhana, first jhana will arise.
Tina: Yeah, for us, what we’ve seen, this practice is relatively new, not only in the West,
but in Asia. And, as its migrated over here, there’s been, in our view of things, a lot of
confusion about what it is, about even what is a full jhana absorption versus access
concentration versus momentary. And also, what is the point of the practice? And, in true
American fashion, or Western fashion, maybe, we look right at the end point and think,
“Oh, I either got jhana or I didn’t get jhana.” And it’s not really the most mature way of
looking at the practice in terms of what the practice is actually designed to do. And that’s
where the purification of mind, which is what is actually called, becomes a much more
sophisticated way of looking at what you’re doing when you’re actually doing the
practice.
What we found, it was really amazing working with so many yogis and seeing how it
worked with people other than us and it’s like an enhanced system built into our
consciousness when we do this practice, which is probably why people have been doing
it, for you know, like three to five thousand years. Where when you go and you sit down
and you try to focus on one object, the breath in this case, to the exclusion of everything
else, and you start to be able to do it then it’s like there is a reinforcement loop of the
jhana factors, because it’s pleasant. It’s actually pleasant to sit. We had a woman in our
retreat who had a broken spinal cord, and who have been in pain for ten years and wasn’t
in pain for the first time. So there’s a lot of rewards that come right from our own
consciousness and doing this practice and then when we find that the minute that people
started clinging, when having desire, wanting attainment or wondering, grasping at the
next stage of the practice – their practice would erode.
Stephen: And they began to notice this and report this.
Tina: Right.
Stephen: So you see it’s self-reinforcing. They get the fact that because the jhana factors
are there and they want them more. For this meditation, I had two cups of coffee and I
had a light breakfast so I’ll try and repeat that again because clearly those are the pattern,
and then next time guess what? It doesn’t go that why cause you’re going in with a
certain level of desire rather than letting it unfold.
Tina: Yeah, it’s changing all the time. We can see the impermanence in action. So people
could see that as their practice progress, their own consciousness was doing all the work.
It’s an amazing mystery to actually watch it happen, and the fact that when you do
something that isn’t that wholesome, the practice starts declining and when there’s a
wholesome orientation towards actually the purification of mind rather than grasping at
attainments, then there’s a whole world possible in terms of what’s actually happening to
the mind stream. And on the retreat that we lead for two weeks, there were people for
whom jhana arose.
Vince: Wow.
Tina: We didn’t know, and we have not and are not going to lower the standards that
were taught to us by the venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw because we think the sangha is ready
for an intense, rigorous practice, and that’s what we want to teach and we had “tell them
the Jedi warrior”.
Stephen: At the very end we had a closing circle and one person said, they felt like they
were just completing two weeks of Jedi warrior training and that’s part of how we frame
this. It’s that each person’s individual practice, and really what we’re doing is working
some with providing content but more of some with trekking guides. We’re trying to help
them but they’re the ones who have to do the trekking. We don’t do it for them. There is
no switch we can flip to give them jhana. They have to begin the process because it’s
their own orientation that they’ve got to learn to turn away from, and people saw a lot of
freedom in that.
Tina: It’s really amazing and because this whole mystery is built out into our own
consciousness and that’s what we’re hoping that with this framework for the practice that
people can really see why the Buddha talked about it so much. It wasn’t just about bliss
states or attainments. It’s really about purification of mind.
Vince: So you really know how to speak to the geeks out there with the whole Jedi thing,
so….
Tina: Well we loved that because that’s what we felt like. That’s what we want to
cultivate and we had two people in there who were 21 and 22 years old, college students,
they made this heroic effort to get there from Kansas and they’ve done one seven day
retreat before and they were right there with everybody, really giving a wholehearted
effort and so you know you don’t have to have 30 years of meditation experience to be
able to engage in the practice.
Stephen: But it was nice for those people as well. Because those people would spend
years and decades doing retreats. This really allowed them, as they would talk about it to
go very deep and to see there own pattern and then move away from that so that’s why it
feels so powerful to do this.
Tina: Yeah, there is really a real intensity with this that’s more so than you would have
on a normal vipassana retreat. So that’s something just to know in choosing to do the
practice. That’s why we’re offering three day retreats as well so people can get a taste of
it and see if it’s for them or not.
Stephen: And the great thing too is of course each person is doing their own Jedi training
here. There is a way of course it does parallel because we are turning towards the mystery
the unconditioned. We are turning towards “the force” and letting that operate more and
turning away from our own decision-making and our own pattern as you see.
Tina: Right.
Stephen: Again, it comes back to our freedom that we have to be willing to turn away
from our own issues.
Tina: Yeah and that comes right back down, there every time that you’re sitting there,
trying to stay with your object, building that muscle. It’s real simple and it really comes
down to it.
Vince: Well, thank you for sharing, that’s really interesting and it’s cool to hear the
experience of the people that have been practicing with you. One thing I know, in your
book, Practicing the Jhanas you share your own experience, up to the point that you had
trained with Pa Auk, which is up through, you have mentioned, the five elements and
then going a little further. Kind of in that transitionary phase between the samatha and
vipassana. And I know he teaches also, you go into vipassana with the strength of the
jhanas, like you mentioned. And so I’m wondering, I know at the time of the writing, you
haven’t gone on to do that formal training with him. Is that something that you plan on
doing and if so, why?
Tina: Yeah, we do want to do it and we thought about it, extensively, because for one
thing for me, I’ve done the vipassana practice as it’s taught, mostly in the tradition of
Mahasi Sayadaw, and the Thai Forest Masters. That was how I came to meditation,
really. And we thought at one point, that the Sayadaw might not offer another retreat. We
thought we wouldn’t have a chance. And since he is doing this, probably his last retreat in
the United States, next year. We have decided to try and rearrange our lives so we can do
it. We’re actually going to be trying to sell our house to do it. So, it’s a pretty big
commitment and it was really when we heard him talking. He was here for 4 months on
his own personal retreat and we had the wonderful opportunity to meet with him several
times, and then he gave a series of talks. And when he really went through the vipassana
practice at one of these talks, we could see the magnitude of it, and the power of it. And
we’re so really awestruck by the depth of it that we decided, we wanted to go and try, and
try and do it and see what would happen. And really, I think the thing that strikes us the
most about the way he teaches the vipassana. In his progression, there’s the same eight
stages of insight that are there in the Mahasi Sayadaw version.
Stephen: And the forest tradition of Ajahn Chah.
Tina: Yeah, but the practices actually mirror, if you were to read the Suttas and read how
the Buddha described his own enlightenment under the Bodhi tree, and the stages, if you
read the Pa Auk, I mean, he would say the Buddha’s but his presentation of what the
Buddha taught, it pretty much mirrors what the Buddha describes. In terms of analyzing
mentality, analyzing materiality, the dependent origination and then the final stages. You
can see the Buddha’s own unfoldment in the practice you’re doing.
Stephen: Now Vince, one thing that’s important on talking about how vipassana is taught
by the Sayadaw is that it starts with, again the four elements which is the last part of our
book. And the four elements is earth, water, fire and air. And one does these in such a
way that it breaks down the body into these four elements and the twelve characteristics
that comprise these four elements. So, one really gets to see the workings of the body to
the point access concentration arises, and one is able to experience their own body as the
kalapas, which of course are subatomic particles. So, the commencement of this practice
and the conclusion of the samatha is seeing your own body as subatomic particles. So, as
Tina said earlier, like the movie the Matrix, the green squiggly lines, they aren’t green
squiggly lines, but they look like fireflies lighting up and going out just in split seconds.
Sort of a pile of these things.
Tina: Right. So, it’s like you’re seeing the arising and the passing of materiality.
Stephen: And so the practice begins by analyzing some of these kalapas for materiality.
Seeing one’s own body and then analyzing that to the point of seeing even the structure
and the composition of the kalapas. And then that goes on to the analysis of mentality.
Breaking down the mentality into all the different levels of consciousness, etc.
Tina: Yeah, say for example, where this gets really interesting to us, is that if I’m
looking at something and that’s going into my awareness as sight, this practice actually
analyzes the kalapas of the mentality that produced my thoughts. So, you can imagine, if
now you’ve seen basically, all of materiality not just your own body but everything
around you as subatomic particles arising in passing, and then your own thoughts, you’re
really breaking down the aggregates here to a level that you don’t perceive reality the
same way you used to anymore.
Stephen: You can’t because this is actually a visceral experience. This isn’t conceptual.
Tina: Right.
Stephen: So, it can’t help but change. I mean, Tina and I, both in the book we talk about,
we both gone to the point of seeing the kalapas as experiencing our own body as kalapas.
And even for a very short period of time, it’s very impactful.
Tina: Yeah, I mean it’s one thing to know through a microscope or through science, that
this is true, and it’s like “oh, big deal.” So, you know, there are subatomic particles, who
cares. But when you’re actually perceiving things that way, it does actually become like
the Matrix. I mean, this is part of the mystery, “what is it?” We don’t know but
something is manifesting everything, look around your room. We’re looking at a desk,
we’ve got chairs here, all of this is manifesting from something. And what is it? Well, we
can’t really know so much with the mind but when you experience it directly for yourself
and know that in your gut, it’s different. It’s different. You can’t take yourself to be what
you thought you were before. So this is why the Vipassana, in the way that it’s taught by
Pa Auk Sayadaw is really a pretty dramatic direct experience of reality as different than
what we take it to be.
Vince: Cool.
Tina: Yeah, I mean it is it’s really cool but you can see there’s a lot of attachment to me
and my ideas and all these things, that’s just not going to happen, or if it does happen, it
could be fairly disturbing.
Vince: Yeah.
Tina: So this is why you would want to be doing the progression of practice in the
sequence that is most desirable as it was laid out with the seal of the samatha and the
vipassana.
Stephen: It’s important to make the distinction also that with both the samatha and the
vipassana practices, they can be done both detailed and brief.
Tina: Right.
Stephen: So there is that in all of Buddhism it’s presented this way. And the detailed for
the vipassana means coming in with some level of jhana experience.
Tina: Well we do know one person who did it without any jhanas.
Stephen: Right, but he had pretty developed access concentration so that was a little
different but as a general rule, that’s why it’s useful, and that’s why at least having first
jhana arise up to fourth jhana arise is really important to that transfer over to the
vipassana. If one can do of course the first because the level depth that one can go
according to the Sayadaw is more.
Tina: Right. Yeah, the Sayadaw, he really suggests that if the practice can progress, at
least the first jhana, then that brings a higher level of concentration than you’re ever
going to get in access doing the vipassana because it’s just not possible with an object
that’s changing to have more than access concentration. If one can progress up to fourth
jhana, that’s even better and when I was about to go on to the vipassana at the end of the
two month retreat, he wanted me to keep doing one sitting a day all the way up to the
eighth jhana, because then that resource was available to turn towards the vipassana.
Vince: Hmm. So it’s kind of like powering up before…
Tina: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and we could feel it. You know, when we started going to
different objects. This is part of what’s good about as you complete the jhana masteries
and then you have to go through all these different objects, it’s like weight lifting. You
know, we talk about strengthening the muscle, you’re building that muscle on a bunch of
different objects to make it stronger and stronger all the time.
Vince: Like cross-training.
Tina: And then there’s… Exactly. Exactly. That’s exactly it. And then there’s one last
part of the vipassana, do you want to talk about that?
Stephen: Yeah, the last big segment is the dependent origination, and in this tradition the
way that’s practiced is that one actually will, through meditation, will go back to the very
first mind moment of this lifetime and then will make the leap into the last mind moment
of the prior lifetime. And in this way will sequentially go back and see prior lifetimes and
the importance of this is seeing how we got here today most particularly our orientation
towards liberation, that there’s been a theme in which lifetime perhaps we didn’t really
follow that and lifetimes where we did. It of course puts us more in touch with that, that
for lifetimes there’s been this hunger for liberation, this draw and we can see that through
the prior lifetimes. And then when one goes back sufficiently one comes back to this
lifetime and then turns the other direction and moves into future lifetimes and follows the
future lifetimes to the point of becoming an Arhant. So then one can see, oh look at the
choices that are going be made up to the point of Arhant. And I asked the Sayadaw when
he gave a public talk, I asked him, Well Sayadaw, since one is doing this path, the
samatha-vipassana path, of course if one completes it the first time then that may be the
first stage of awakening in the Theravadan, which is the stream enterer. Of course one is
doing the path again hoping that it will all work in such a way that the uprooting will take
place in the vipassana sufficiently to advance the stages of awakening. And my question
was, wouldn’t that automatically change the future lifetimes? Because of course, with the
sotapanna they have up to a maximum of seven more lifetimes before becoming an
Arhant, and the next stage is a once-returner meaning coming back one more time so
clearly there’s a change. And he said yes, absolutely it changes as you go through and do
it again. If you did dependent origination again, you would only see the next lifetime.
So it’s fascinating that that’s built into the system and also, as Tina says, our own
consciousness it’s all dovetailed into this. And it’s hard not to have for us not to have just
immense gratitude and respect for the Buddha and for our own teacher Pa Auk Sayadaw
really maintaining this and thinking that this system the Buddha in effect designed this or
this recognized this 2,600 years ago, and it’s still relevant to us sitting here as westerners
in the U.S. as modern people.
Related
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